Bitrate Baffled

GoldWave general discussions and community help
Post Reply
piano nick
Posts: 423
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:33 pm

Bitrate Baffled

Post by piano nick »

I use a sequencer program called Powertracks. Each midi track is recorded (rendered to wave) separately using a hard synth (digital piano) for the various instruments.

Audio settings in Powertracks are set at: 24 bit and 48 kHz.

Goldwave is set to record 24 bit, and "Options / File Format Options" is set at PCM signed 24 bit, stereo.

Soundcard (EMU 1820M) is set to 48 kHz operation.

The problem:

I can "export" a recorded wave file from Powertracks and when viewed, the file properties are:
Bit Rate = 2304 kbps
Audio Sample size = 24 bit
Channels = 2 (stereo)
Audio Sample rate = 48 kHz
Audio format = PCM.

At the bottom of the GW screen, it reads: "Wave (Obsolete) PCM signed 24 bit, 48000 Hz, 2304 kbps, stereo".

If the wave file is edited and "Saved" it can be imported back into Powertracks.

If the wave file is edited and "Saved As" in GW, it then reads: "Wave (Obsolete) PCM signed 24 bit, 48000 Hz, 2304 kbps, stereo" at the bottom of the GW screen, and IT CANNOT be imported back into Powertracks.


What is going on with the "Obsolete" designation?


PN
GoldWave Inc.
Site Admin
Posts: 4372
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:43 pm
Location: St. John's, NL
Contact:

Re: Bitrate Baffled

Post by GoldWave Inc. »

The "obsolete" designation is given to a 24 bit Wave file that uses the WAVE_FORMAT_PCM tag. Wave files containing audio beyond 16 bits or more than 2 channels should use the WAVE_FORMAT_EXTENSIBLE tag. If Powertracks creates obsolete Wave files, it should be able to import such files created by GoldWave unless Powertracks stores proprietary information in the format chunk. It would be difficult to know what the problem is without seeing one of the Powertracks files.

Chris
piano nick
Posts: 423
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:33 pm

Post by piano nick »

Goldwave Chris:

Thanks for the reply - by the number of "views" of the topic and lack of comments, I realized early on that this question was likely out of most people's experience; certainly mine.

The native file extension for Powertracks files is SEQ (for sequencer), and they can contain both midi tracks and wave tracks, either mono or stereo (or both).

The command "Merge audio tracks to stereo wave file" produces a file when loaded into Goldwave is entitled, "Wave (obsolete) PCM signed 24 bit etc).

The file can be played, and edited in any way, BUT it must be "saved". The Goldwave command "Save as" renders it "unloadable" back into Powertracks (Driver cannot do requested conversion).

This is a nuisance as I want to use higher bit-rates/frequencies and edit the individual tracks in Goldwave (the editing capabilities in PT are IMO pathetic - even though many people are using it - I think they just don't realize what a real wave editor is).

I would use Multiquence, but its 16/44.1 limitations are problematic. If and when Multiquence goes higher bit-rates/frequencies, I'll give up on Powertracks for mixing.

PN

I could e-mail a short snippet of unaltered file from PT if you wish.
GoldWave Inc.
Site Admin
Posts: 4372
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:43 pm
Location: St. John's, NL
Contact:

Post by GoldWave Inc. »

I'll need a small sample PowerTracks Wave file to see what it thinks a valid Wave file should look like. Contact me and I'll provide a link where you can upload a file, or if it is small enough, e-mail it.

Chris
Togglehead
Posts: 98
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:37 pm
Location: Jersey

Post by Togglehead »

What about an alternative for mixing...say, cool edit, or sonar. Not a solution to the problem of course..and just my 2 cents.

i have had similar issues related to .vox files in my practice....and there is SOME kind of mixup in there....i have yet to figure out what it is.

Keep me posted...i am interested in this.
piano nick
Posts: 423
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:33 pm

Post by piano nick »

Chris at Goldwave:

I sent a snippet of a Wave (Obsolete) file.

Did you receive it?


PN
GoldWave Inc.
Site Admin
Posts: 4372
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:43 pm
Location: St. John's, NL
Contact:

Post by GoldWave Inc. »

Sorry for the delay. I received it, but I don't see anything obvious that would prevent PowerTracks from opening the file after being resaved in GoldWave. The format is identical. Was the file you provided the original PowerTracks one, or was it resaved in GoldWave?

Chris
piano nick
Posts: 423
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:33 pm

Post by piano nick »

Chris:

It was the original file created in Powertracks.

To reiterate:

1. I export a file from PT, and load it into GW,

2. If I edit the file in GW, I can import it back into PT if I use the SAVE command in GW.

3. If I edit the file (OR NOT), I cannot import it back into PT if I use the SAVE AS command in GW.

I can get around the problem by simply saving "File 1.wav" and "File 2 .wav", but it would be simpler to export the wave to PT, do the editing, and rename the edited file by identifying how it was edited (Reduce Peaks 6 6 0 0). However renaming requires the SAVE AS command.

I have been using strictly 24 48 recording as of late, but the same thing happens with 16 44.1 files (just tried it to be sure).

Perhaps I will run the question past the PG Music forum.


Glenn
GoldWave Inc.
Site Admin
Posts: 4372
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:43 pm
Location: St. John's, NL
Contact:

Post by GoldWave Inc. »

I saved the file under a different name and saved it under the same name, then did a binary comparison of the two files. Both where identical. Using File | Save created exactly the same file as File | Save As. The only difference is the name.

Try using File | Save As in GoldWave, then rename that file to its original name to see if PowerTracks will import it. Maybe PowerTracks creates a separate file with additional data and the name of the Wave file has to match the name of that data file.

Chris
piano nick
Posts: 423
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:33 pm

Post by piano nick »

Chris:

The following question was raised on the PG forum: "How about file sizes, do they end up exactly the same?"

This was my reply:

Just tried a test on the file size; they are identical in length - 51,781 KB.

Also tried using "windows copy" which duplicates the file and adds the words "Copy of" at the front of the file name. This duplicated file will load into PTPA (it should as PT shouldn't know what the name should be).

Loaded the original test file, and did a SAVE AS and saved it with the same name in another directory. It will not load into PTPA.

The problem doesn't seem to be card related because I can edit the wave file (compression, volume change, etc) and as long as I use the SAVE command, the file will load into PTPA.


So, in effect, I had already tried your suggestion (except I SAVED AS to a different directory). It doesn't work.

Repeated the process exactly following your suggestion: Exported a test file from PTPA, loaded it into GW, used SAVE AS while renaming it. Deleted the original file, and renamed the SAVED AS file to the original name - it will not load.

It doesn't matter what the file is called or if it has been extensively edited or not in Goldwave, once the SAVE AS command is used, it's won't load into PTPA. If it is SAVED and has a new name it is acceptable to PTPA.

My soundcard (EMU 1820M) is set for 48 kHz, Goldwave is set for PCM 24 bit in both playback and record, and the Default Save Format is PCM Signed 24-bit stereo, PTPA is set for 24-bit, 48 kHz and MME Audio Driver Type.


PN

Update: I had ripped a cd using Goldwave a few months ago. The files can be imported into PTPA. Obviously though, they weren't saved using the SAVE AS command in Goldwave.

Of course when the file is exported and SAVED AS, it cannot be imported back into PTPA.

PN
GoldWave Inc.
Site Admin
Posts: 4372
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:43 pm
Location: St. John's, NL
Contact:

Post by GoldWave Inc. »

Unless there is something unusual about your computer, the only other differences would the file's date and possibly the attributes.

Try making a copy of the file using Windows in the same folder, but with a different name. Make sure it works in PowerTracks. Open the original in GoldWave and use Save As to save it over the copy. Does that copy work in PowerTracks?

You mentioned the default save format is "PCM Signed 24-bit stereo". Maybe that should be "(obsolete) PCM signed 24-bit stereo". Make sure those attributes are selected on the Save As window.

Chris
piano nick
Posts: 423
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:33 pm

Post by piano nick »

Chris:


That did the trick. file SAVEd AS using (obsolete) PCM signed, 24-bit stereo can be imported into PTPA.

Thank you - I don't know why I missed saving usingt that option.

Now, the question is, why can't it import PCM signed 24-bit or 16-bit?


PN
GoldWave Inc.
Site Admin
Posts: 4372
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:43 pm
Location: St. John's, NL
Contact:

Post by GoldWave Inc. »

An earlier post in this topic mentions the technical difference between "(obsolete) PCM" and standard "PCM" files. Microsoft changed the Wave standard to support a wider range of formats. GoldWave now uses the updated standard by default for attributes beyond PCM 16 bit. The PowerTracks developers will need to update their Wave import code. However PCM 16 bit files should always work.

Chris
Post Reply