LP to CD and USB phono amps

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Vince
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:02 pm

LP to CD and USB phono amps

Post by Vince »

Sorry in advance about the length of this...
I want to copy LPs to CDs via my PC (to do some clean up) and there seem to be two options from my Project Xpression turntable (MM cartridge output):
1. Use a line-out from my main amp (Denon PMA700E) to the PC line in and let the PC on-board sound processor do the digitization to Goldwave to produce .WAV files. This involves a 5 metre connection cable from the amp RCA sockets to a 3.5mm stereo input on the PC
2. Buy a Phono-USB amp stage and connect to the PC that way - with a long USB cable. I've looked at Project, NAD and ART boxes and the NAD seems quite flexible (and supplies VinylStudio free PC recording software ).
I'm tempted to the NAD PP-3 so I downloaded the manual. It says that the USB output is digital, sampled at 48kHz which presumably would 'travel' better and avoid the PC A/D converter and go straight into Goldwave as a digital stream. Is this correct?
If so, presumably a .WAV file recorded with Goldwave would be at 48kHz and I assume that I just use Effects/Resample to get to the 44.1kHz for CD burning.
Up to now I've gone from turntable via amp to a domestic CD recorder with CDRW disks, then extract and process with Goldwave and burn CDRs, but the CD recorder has packed up.
So I'm new to this idea of going from turntable to PC to CD and would very much appreciate any comments, help and may be a suggestion for which USB box.

Thanks
JackH
Posts: 100
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:27 pm

Re: LP to CD and USB phono amps

Post by JackH »

Vince wrote:I'm tempted to the NAD PP-3 so I downloaded the manual. It says that the USB output is digital, sampled at 48kHz which presumably would 'travel' better and avoid the PC A/D converter and go straight into Goldwave as a digital stream. Is this correct?
Yes, this should produce better results. It's awfully hard to get good results with an A/D converter inside a PC. The external USB unit should do much better, and I would trust that NAD would get it right. I have an NAD preamp, and its phono section is outstanding.
Vince wrote:Up to now I've gone from turntable via amp to a domestic CD recorder with CDRW disks, then extract and process with Goldwave and burn CDRs, but the CD recorder has packed up.
This is the method I use.
DougDbug
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:33 pm
Location: Silicon Valley

Post by DougDbug »

1. Use a line-out from my main amp (Denon PMA700E) to the PC line in and let the PC on-board sound processor do the digitization to Goldwave to produce .WAV files. This involves a 5 metre connection cable from the amp RCA sockets to a 3.5mm stereo input on the PC
I'd try that first. But, that's a rather long analog cable connection... I'd be a little concerned with hum pick-up. If there is a problem with the long cables, I'd temporarily move the stereo system or the computer.
2. Buy a Phono-USB amp stage and connect to the PC that way - with a long USB cable... It says that the USB output is digital, sampled at 48kHz which presumably would 'travel' better and avoid the PC A/D converter and go straight into Goldwave as a digital stream. Is this correct?
True. An additional consideration is the quality of the A/D converter vs. the quality of the A/D converter on your soundcard/soundchip. (It may be better or worse.)
If so, presumably a .WAV file recorded with Goldwave would be at 48kHz and I assume that I just use Effects/Resample to get to the 44.1kHz for CD burning.
That will work. It's theoretically better to record at the "correct" sample rate and avoid resampling, which involves filtering, interpolation, rounding, etc. But, I've done it several times (converting 48kHz DVD audio to 44.1kHz CD) and I can't hear any side-effects.
...and may be a suggestion for which USB box.
If you can find the specs on both boxes, the first thing I'd look at is noise (S/N ratio).
So I'm new to this idea of going from turntable to PC to CD and would very much appreciate any comments, help...


My "standard comments" about recording LPs.
DougDbug wrote:
There are lots of hints & tips about recording/digitizing/cleaning-up LPs on this page.


I will almost always do the following:

If the CD is available, I'll buy it! My LP-to-CD transfers almost never turn-out quite "CD quality". (It's sometimes impossible to remove all of the noise.)

I always check for clipping. I run Maximize to check the peak level, and if it's 0dB I assume it's clipped and I re-record. (Clipping is distorted flat-topped "waves", caused by trying to go above the digital maximum of 0dB.)

I use Wave Repair ($30 USD) to remove "ticks", "clicks", and "pops". It does an amazing job by replacing the defect with the just-preceding or just-following few milliseconds of sound (or a couple of other methods). WARNING - This can be very time consuming. Wave Repair seems to work best when used manually. It usually takes me a day (or a weekend) to fix-up an LP.

I try some noise reduction and/or noisegate. Sometimes there can be artifacts (side effects), so I don't always apply these "filters".

If it's an old "dull sounding" recording, I'll add some high-end boost (with the Equalizer).

After I'm done with any other processing, I always Maximize (normalize) or use GoldWave's MaxMatch. This sets the level so that the peaks are exactly 0dB, giving the best signal-to-noise ratio at playback time. It's generally best to normalize the whole album as a single WAV file to retain the relative level between the tracks... Some songs are supposed to be louder or softer than others.

Whenever I burn a CD, I always make an extra archive/back-up copy. If I'm doing lots of processing, I make an un-processed archive CD too.
mh
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:20 pm

Post by mh »

Option 3 is to link your TT direct to your soundcard, and use the EQ in Goldwave to do the necessary RIAA equalisation (boosting the recording level appropriately, of course). I haven't tried this so I don't know how feasible or otherwise it might be, but logic tells me that going through a shorter signal path (and with less mangling/filtering of the signal) in the analog domain should be a worthwhile gain. Whether things are made worse elsewhere in the process is something I can't say.
DewDude420
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Location: Washington DC Metro Area
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Post by DewDude420 »

I've got nothing to really add...I can issue the standard "i've done all kinds of vinyl if you get stuck, ask" and to not get too caught up in noise cleanup. it's going to be there, you're not going to remove it all.

i will say you ALWAYS use a phono preamp...NEVER cheap out and go into the line-in and boost or use mic-in and apply RIAA EQ. There's a major impedence mismatch that can cause very funky audio.

My current setup is TT into Denon amplifier's phono stage - rec-out to usb sound (the internal audigy/xfi live drive is also acceptable as it's shielded quite a bit).
Vince
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:02 pm

Post by Vince »

Thank you for all the replies. They've decided me to go the pre-amp > USB route. I've been tempted by the line-in level, and line out capability of the ART phono box. It has some good reviews and a 44.1 sample option, so I think that is the one I'll choose. The dealer I've found has a 14 day return option so should be OK.
Here are the specs:
• Frequency Response: 10Hz –50KHz, +/-.5dB
• THD: .01% Typical @ 1KHz
• Hum and Noise: >90dB below clipping
• Input Impedance: 47k Ohms/100pF (phono) 270k Ohm (line)
• Maximum Input Level: 40mVrms @1KHz (phono), +19dBu (line)
• Maximum Gain: 45dB @ 1KHz (phono), +6dB (line)
• Analog Output Connections: RCA (preamp line output), 1/8” (Preamp/USB monitor/headphone output with volume control)
• Maximum Output Level: +6dBu (1.4Vrms)
• Filter Type/Response: Switchable, High Pass, -3dB @ 22Hz
• A/D & D/A: 16 bit, 44.1KHz or 48KHz USB selectable
• Digital Audio Interface: TOSLINK in and out, S/PDIF coax (RCA) in
Vince
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:02 pm

Post by Vince »

DewDude420 wrote:I've got nothing to really add...I can issue the standard "i've done all kinds of vinyl if you get stuck, ask" and to not get too caught up in noise cleanup. it's going to be there, you're not going to remove it all.

i will say you ALWAYS use a phono preamp...NEVER cheap out and go into the line-in and boost or use mic-in and apply RIAA EQ. There's a major impedence mismatch that can cause very funky audio.

My current setup is TT into Denon amplifier's phono stage - rec-out to usb sound (the internal audigy/xfi live drive is also acceptable as it's shielded quite a bit).
Using your Denon phono stage then rec-out > USB sound is an interesting approach. I also have a Denon amp with a phono input so it will be interesting to compare the TT > ART phono in > USB versus TT > Denon > ART line in > USB. The latter had occurred to me but I'm thinking that the fewer links between TT and PC the better. It will depend on whether the ART phono stage can do a better job than the Denon.

My previous arrangement of TT > Denon amp > Marantz audio CD-RW > PC (Goldwave CD Extract) > clean up > CD-R has given me some very good results from LPs with only minor noise problems. My worst clicks were removed with GW Pop/Click set to a tolerance of 2000 which is approaching the GW 'passive' default. Most of my transfers are opera, and the most tedious part of the clean up is cue setting 'inside' continuous music/ singing where a fraction of a second can be important. Great pastime for long winter evenings!

Despite all this, I still buy CD transfers of my favourite LPs if available - but many aren't.
Vince
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:02 pm

Post by Vince »

Just a short report on the ART Phono Plus v2 which arrived three days ago.
It is a doddle to set up and a 9v power supply is provided, which i used in preference to the USB so that I could use the ART as a phono amp without the PC turned on.
Windows XP recognized the USB device, and Goldwave defaulted to it when the record button was clicked. I just set the record sampling rate to 44.1 in Goldwave. I've made two recordings from an LP with plenty of dynamics and heavy orchestration, and the results are good. The alternative paths used were TT > ART > PC and TT > Denon amp (Phono input) > ART > PC.
I've compared the waveforms in Goldwave from both routes and they are almost but not quite identical in detail displaying about 0.1 second in the Goldwave window .
Listening to the original LP alongside a CD burned from the TT > ART > PC route and switching back and forth there is no obvious difference. Perhaps the CD seems marginally brighter than the LP - but that could be the CD player (also Denon, but could do with updating!)
On balance, as my system is on the 'bright' side anyway, I think I'll use the Denon phono amp route. This arrangement also means the ART can be permanently connected to the amp line-out and I dont have to replug it to use it for a radio source, and I don't have to use it for listening to LPs.
So all in all it's a good A/D converter and I've escaped the PC onboard sound processor. If my amp didn't have a phono input I'd have no qualms about using the ART as a phono amp.
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