Equalizer extensions - loudness contour

[tpatriarche]

I work extensively with pipe organ music, which typically goes down to 32 Hz and often to 16 Hz. Even ordinary rock music goes down to 41 or 37 Hz.

The Equalizer in Filters only goes down to 60 Hz and does not (so far as I can tell) take into account amplitude. The preset for equal loudness is a reasonable compromise for moderate amplitudes and high frequencies, but low bass (subwoofer frequencies) are much more dependent on loudness, and the contour is increasingly steeper for frequencies below 60 Hz: 25 db/octave or more at low frequencies and amplitudes, rather than the common rule-of-thumb of 10db/octave; the GW equalizer does not boost even 150-60 Hz sufficiently for moderate volume levels.

I am a new GW user, still evaluating its usefulness for my projects, and maybe there is a plugin or another option that would cover the low bass better - please enlighten me if there is.

In any case, I think the equalizer should go down to at least 30 Hz, preferably 20 Hz or lower, and have a wider dB range, since it is in this frequency range that the loudness contour is the most extreme.

[Moonmist]

The spectrum filter allows frequencies down to 10 hz to be edited but it doesn't work right now (I reported it as a bug to Chris, he's probably working on it for the next update).

The Parametric EQ will work correctly at any frequency (I've discovered via the windows registry) and you can boost or reduce by basically any db level within 32-bit limits and choose basically any width in hz (although I think the sample rate might effect the effectiveness... higher rates need more width to have an effect).

Unfortunately the only way to get past the limits imposed by Chris is to edit the windows registry to create presets, which is very inconvenient and time consuming. I have to use a hex editor to figure out the format for each preset, and then use the hex encoder/decoder to encode floating point values to hex format and then windows registry editor won't even allow you to paste the code (it also won't let you paste code from the registry to the hex editor!)

So it takes a long time. But I tried doing an 80db boost of 5 hz with a width of 10 hz and it worked. I also have a whole group of presets I made for doing highpasses and lowpasses with a steepness of 1 from 512 seconds/cycle to 2 seconds/cycle (in octaves), and then from 1 hz to 19 hz (in 1 hz steps). The highpass function works great for removing uneven phases to boost RMS levels (I use this all the time and it works like a charm!) without having to compress anything, and also it will remove DC offsets. If Goldwave used linear-phase on the highpass/lowpass though then fixing the phase via that method probably wouldn't work. Ideally it would be nice if Goldwave had a feature for phase shifting all frequencies equally kind of like Voxengo's PHA-979 which I also use but it introduces some latency that is inconvenient.

So yeah the Spectrum filter has bugs below 20 hz and above 65,536 hz right now and the Parametric EQ has no bugs (that I'm aware of) but it also will only let you edit down to 20hz and I forget the upper limit (I think maybe it was 50,000hz?) And the gain editing limits are -100db and +40db, and the width limit is from 20hz to something (I think maybe 10,000 hz or something like that?)

So I too am in favor of at least having frequencies from DC to 20hz to be editable in at least the parametric EQ since I know it's capable of it already (as proven via windows registry settings).

But as of right now, there is no easy way to edit frequencies below 20 hz . So jump aboard with me for feature request for larger frequency range! lol

Btw I love Pipe Organ too, I have some tracks with pipe organ and that's one of my main reasons for wishing for these larger ranges as well!

Moonmist

[DewDude420]

There's a couple of theories as to why this is. For starters, I have a BUNCH of audio apps (more wasted money at my failed attempt to make a studio) and for the EQ's that work in the time domain, they too also stop at around 20hz as far as markers go. Even my 30-band EQ in the outrageously overpriced (but almost worth it) Adobe Audion only has a band marked as "< 32hz". You do not see frequency scaling any lower untill you get in to the FFT Filter which is the same as Spectrum Filter. It could be that an EQ filter can't accurately process signals that low in the time domain.

Generally speaking...a stereo system shouldn't be reproducing frequencies any lower than around 25hz. Ever wonder why subwoofers amps are so hefty? Bass takes a LOT of power to produce and any good engineer knows you don't go blasting 16hz in a file...you WILL cause damage to sound systems and/or speakers. Most GOOD amplifiers have what's known as a "Subsonic" filter...this is basically a low-shelf filter for the real low end...greatly reducing audio below 22hz.

the fact that a pipe organ can hit 16 hz doesn't mean that's it's center frequency...in theory, if it was, you WOULD NOT be able to hear it. Like most insturments, it causes a LOT of harmonics and it's generally these that you actually hear as they spread out all over the spectrum.

combine this with the fact that DAC's aren't perfect, and thier ability to reproduce such a low frequency isn't all that great.

The EQ's will control all the frequencies lower than the lowest on the EQ. I made a 15hz sine wave and was able to attenuate it by lowering the 60hz band. No, it's probably not the manual control over the lower bands you want...but you shouldn't have them to begin with. They never existed in analog components and, as far as i'm concerned...they shouldn't exist in digital either. If everyone could go around boosting frequencies we can't hear, we'd wind up with a lot of blown audio systems.

[Moonmist]

I can hear them just fine. Yes the overtones are what gets you to recognize the pitch but the fundamental of 16hz can be heard if it's loud enough, it just isn't recognizable as a pitch (unless you're some amazing freak of nature lol) unless there is overtones. But if I put a fully maximized 16hz sinewave I can hear it... however any lower and it gets more difficult without bumping the volume.

I happen to listen to everything on my Denon headphones, and they can put out down to 5hz without "bursting". I'm surprised the world doesn't care to reproduce subsonic frequencies. They provide a great deal of realism. If a successful system could put out these low frequencies watching a movie with explosions and other similar noises with tons of subsonic frequencies in real life... then a movie experience could feel a lot more like real life (given still not the same thing but much closer). I love the feeling of the sound waves pulsating the sounds around me when I'm wearing headphones. I feel it in my chest and I love it.

I understand though if they prevent editing that in audio applications to prevent users from boosting that on accident so that everyone in the world doesn't have to worry about their speakers being blown. Basically I just want to be able have every frequency thrown at me when listening to sounds through any sound system or medium, just like real life.

But I think this is a bad solution as it forces limitations on the whole world that don't always exist with every individual, such as in my case being able to listen down to 5 hz (and I have) without blowing my speakers. I think they should just make subsonic filters a mandatory feature on all speakers sold.

But there's a lot of people who are beginners and making songs and they might boost too low a frequency and then the people who download his song play their song and then blow their speakers, so I think that's a valid concern so I can see why Chris wouldn't want to make those frequencies editable in Goldwave.

But I have another idea that would work for everyone (at least I'm thinking it should). The idea is to implement the ability to turn on or off all limits via a registry setting. ImposeLimitations 1 is on, 0 is off .. then there wouldn't be (at least as much of) a worry of the beginners boosting frequencies too low for their songs because the idea is that if they are unintelligent enough to do that, then they would (most likely) be too unintelligent to work in the windows registry... and then of course Chris wouldn't give step by step instructions he'd just say "ok there's a setting for it" and then the rest is figure-outable, but (hopefully) only by people who are also smart enough to not boost really insanely low frequencies.

You see I don't make work for others to hear, mine is mainly for my own enjoyment, so no one else is at risk, I only intend to play it on my system through my headphones.

So, since it's just mainly me (and maybe the OP I don't know) I could see why Chris wouldn't find justice in doing this if it was a hard time consuming thing to do (or if he felt my theory about the dumb people wouldn't work, lol), but if it was fast and easy to implement and you think it sounds good then I wouldn't mind having such a registry setting Chris. lol I mean I'll live I have lived, lol, but it just would be nice, I've always dreamed of having a customized application for me where there were no imposed limits in the program, only technical limitations!

So dewdude I'm guessing you would like to impose a subsonic filter on your eardrums (for real life) too lol? I mean why wouldn't the world want more realism added to music/movies/sounds etc? I always thought the goal of technology was to make things as realistic as possible so if that's the case then why not subsonic? And even frequencies below 16hz where it starts to become unaudible, you can still feel them and that adds realism to the experience! Heck you might even be able to use the brown note if your having issues in the restroom, lol (that was a joke, lol I don't think there is such a thing or I would have probably had an accident by now, lol).

But remember please, the "can't hear this low" thing is totally subjective because some people can hear it if they have good hearing, like me for example. Most headphones and speakers you would not hear it at all (especially speakers) but for people with good hearing and good closed ear headphones 16 hz is hearable (not pitch recognizeable I don't think, at least I know I can't without overtones). And then pitches lower are still feelable. So they aren't useless (to everyone).

And Goldwave via the registry was able to EQ a 5 hz tone just fine and it was pretty acurate at lower sample rates, so I know it can do it, it wasn't inacurate at all, at higher rates it was maybe not able to have the width as small but it still boosted at the correct frequency (as measured by selecting 1 cycle and dividing the sample rate by the amount of samples of the selection). So it's already capable despite the imposed limits.

This isn't a big deal though, it just prevents me from having as much fun as I'd like to with audio. I was just explaining to the original poster that Goldwave can't edit down to 16hz right now and was just sharing my similar desire to edit frequencies that low, and was letting him (and well everyone in general) what a nightmare it was to edit the registry (mainly because of microsoft not allowing the registry and other programs to work with each other via the clipboard!) but that it is possible in case he was desperate, lol.

I can understand this majority opinion though, it just seems like people are satisfied enough, but I'm a hardcore experimentalist and perfectionist and want everything in technology to be as realistic as possible including this!

Ok that's it for now, excuse me while I go ice my fingers, lol!

Moonmist

[DewDude420]

I can understand this majority opinion though, it just seems like people are satisfied enough, but I'm a hardcore experimentalist and perfectionist and want everything in technology to be as realistic as possible including this!

Well, for starters, you're asking the impossible, so you should discard this "perfection" opinion...especially when it comes to audio. Realism is one thing, but working within the limits of the technology comes in to play. Goldwave is an audio editing program geared at generic audio production, not a "omg it's realistic with ponies!"

Ok, there's a lot to take in to consideration...let me start here. I will admit, I started typing this message then got distracted by my sister wanting to play me in RockBand (I kicked her butt for the record). It jumps..it's probably confusing. However, I feel very strongly on the subject...one shouldn't be playing around with subsonics...even if you THINK your equipment can handle it...it likely can't. Think of your ears at least...you keep pumping enough bass you can feel it (as I'll explain below), is just asking for premature hearing loss. Your eardrum can only take so much abuse before the nerve endings stop working.

First of all, no, you can't really hear 16, you're more likely to feel the changes in pressure in your ears which it "decodes" as a type of sound. As an engineer, I get sound checks yearly...my best lowest is 19hz and my highest is 21.4khz (down from the 23k from 3 years ago). It's true everyone's hearing is different...but what varies more is how the brain processes that sound. I'll get more in to that later.

While I only own a pair of Denon earbuds (good for buds), I've owned several pair of Sennheiser headphones and currently own a pair of Bose. I've tested these things and have gotten movement out of as low as 1hz...but that doesn't mean it's safe. You have to take in to account what the driver is DESIGNED to do...your Denon's might be rathed down to 5hz (unlikely), but just because they do doesn't mean it's a good. Ok, let me repeat that...just because your speakers can handle that low of a frequency doesn't mean it's very good for them. I've got a pair of DCM's that I've had respond down to 5hz, but, I don't dare send that much through it becuase, for starters, the crossover starts to get warm, and b, the speakers just aren't designed for it. A speaker, regardless of what it's in, only has so much physical movement it can handle before it either physically clips or tears itself apart.

As far as subsonics in the natural world...they're there...and your ears don't have to filter them out, you mostly feel them...but they're naturally occuring..however, ever wonder why someone who was real close to an explosion winds up bleeding from the ears? Generally the pressure from the shockwave causes them to rupture.

i never said subharmonics/subsonics were bad...not at all...just bad for your stereo.

I'll basically say this....just becuase your equipment can do it doesn't mean it's safe. My truck will do 80mph on the highway...that doesn't mean it's all that safe for the truck. I think the way Chris did the EQ's, sticking with the actual formed STANDARD (because, yes, EQ bands are a defined standard), it's a good thing. Subsonics? They're ok if naturally occuring...pumping that much through a sound system isn't a good idea.

As far as feeling the bass in your chest using headphones...that's NOT normal. For starters....I hate to think of the hearing-damage you're doing pumping excessive volumes in to it. It's like my ear-doc says...if you can feel the pressure in your ear-canal...then you're cans are up too loud and doing damage. Probably what you're expierencing is a binaural phasing effect which is basically giving your brain an injection and making it do loopy things.

The lack of fine control in the lower end bass is there out of an industry standard...if you want the real low frequencies...use spectrum filter, it's more suited for that task than the normal EQ.

If you keep pumping the low-end bass into a system not designed for it, you'll blow something, euventually...or not...but either way..your equipment or your ears are taking a toll..and you'll have to wind up pumping more and more bass till euventually, you'll distort things. You also need to know that extreme low bass...like a 10hz sine wave mixed in with sound modulates it at 10hz and ruins the dynamics.

We have things designed to pump out sub-sonics and the like with enough force for you to feel it, it's called a subwoofer. That's what they're designed to do, they have amps built special for that purpose along with drivers designed for it.

I once worked in a studio with an engineer on a small album (he let me work the board after finding out I knew what I was doing), he gave me these pieces of advice:

dynamic compression is evil, but necessary
a mix might sound totally different when all elements are arranged
mixing strange ways can cause migranes (binaural stress)
headphones do not equal speakers
0 - 20hz is a "no-zone"
people always add EQ.

Basically what he was saying with the no-zone deals with CD mastering and taking in to consideration the audio systems. Someone with a cheap boombox will get horrible sound if the bass was allowed to be boosted in inaudible frequencies.

the real point is you don't go messing with subsonics...99% of the consumer equipment out there either filters it out or is incapable of handeling it...some hand it off to subwoofers which, usually being cheap, can't handle it either.

i can understand you wanting to play around...but you gotta remember is Goldwave needs to keep with some standards...and sometimes, allowing a standard to be broken is asking for trouble. It's better to keep it on the professional side and have the lo-freq-shelves where they are rather than expand them to frequencies we can't hear...as stated, spectrum filter will allow you to do that.

Also, if you don't feel you're getting what you want...there's nothing that says you cannot use additional external EQ's. I happen to have a tonal curve I like that's not quite up to the flat standard of most engineers...therefore, I have a hardware EQ in my path that's set to the amount of boosting I like.

And for more about just how your brain reacts to sound....take a gander at this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_beats - this is actually what i've been studying for the last 6 months.

[Moonmist]

if this is so harmful how come it feels so pleasant to me then? I've never gotten a migrane, my headphones have never broken. I talked to a guy from headroom.com and he told me that the Denon aren't harmed at all by lower than 20 hz frequencies and in fact it was one of it's main features! even on cheaper headphones I've done low frequency stuff and nothing ever got hot or acting like it was about to break. I'm just asking if everything you're saying is true then how come I'm not seeing these truths myself?

You said you heard 19hz... so you think that because that's the lowest you can hear no one could hear lower, like you're perfect. 3 hz isn't that much, and yes I heard it, binaural has to do with stereo image and I was using a mono sine wave. If it was damaging my ears shouldn't I be finding myself turning things up louder, or having trouble hearing someone? I'm not having any problems and I been listening to these pitches for years.

Maybe you think I'm blasting it to like 100 db, no way, my volume on my preamp is set to about 70db if I try to go higher it clips. I won't touch the preamp because I don't want to ruin my hearing (that's what ruins it! high levels), but I can hear a 0db 16 hz sine wave although it's extremely faint... the beating in my chest I was just referring in general to the effect sound waves that low have, in real acoustics... I never actually had my chest beat from headphones, but I have heard the ambient sounds in my room pulsate at the sine frequency and I love how it sounds.

All I know is, until I run into some problems, I'm assuming it's fine... you're saying it's dangerous, but I feel no danger at all. I'm fine my headphones are fine and I've been doing this for 7 years now. 7 years no problem = I'm not worried. you could tell me "oh yeah but you'll be sorry later in your life" well guess what... 7 years and no problems means that's a risk I'm willing to take! maybe if it was just 1 or 2 years I'd be more open, but anyway, people do far more dangerous things than this because they love it. skydiving, bungee jumping, paragliding, even surfing there is always a danger of dying, at least my thing doesn't risk death! And about the explosions making ears bleed... well no kidding those explosions are well over 100db, at home you have a thing called a volume control... under 100db and those frequencies won't make nothing bleed (at least not on me).

I'm just so shocked how scared the world is of these frequencies that we hear everyday and we are fine, maybe we don't have the ears of a baby, but we are good enough, if you're that overdone with your hearing then that's fine, but I don't live life that way, especially when 7 years and I'm fine. and about technology not having the capability, well goldwave boosted a 5 hz thing fine in the PARAMETRIC EQ not the awful EQ with preset bands (and I say awful because the filters create a suction cup like sound like the filters are too steep or something that is noticeable as well as some nasty phase shifts and volume spikes) the parametric eq is what I've been referring to, I made a preset for boosting a 5 hz tone and it worked just fine, so it was capable for me.

I almost think you have a infraphobia. Meanwhile I have an infraphilia or something lol. So a person with phobia and philia of a given thing in life really shouldn't talk about that thing together as it will just get both of them no where. And yes I know you've been told stuff by pros so they must all have phobias too right? blah blah ... no I'm saying that because you're acting like it's dangerous... lions tigers and bears are dangerous (oh my!) but acoustical sound waves? so yes since 99.99999999999999999999999999% of the people on the earth use speakers and not headphones and then out of that .00000000000000000000000001 % that does use headphones only .00000000000000000000000001 % have headphones that won't burst and explode into a different galaxy and dimension if given a tone under the scary end of the world limit of 20 hz! (oh no let's hide! I'm scared, I'm shaking so much I've just knocked out everyone within 10 feet of me! whoops! darn sound waves!!)... so yes I can understand why it's the "twilight-zone" never-never land of frequencies for engineers making music for the speaker-world, but guess what I'm in that .00000000000000000000000001 % and I could be the only one for all I care, but my situation is different, and so you wouldn't ever see my point of view unless you had empathy (something that also only about .00000000000000000000000001 % of the world has! no wonder the world is going down the toilet!!)

(Sometimes I wish I could just go off into my own planet where people are more adventurous and experimental and not like sheep who just follow the rest.)

Ok so yes I got offended and a little upset, I had to vent. Sorry. I didn't mean to personally attack anyone so if I did I'm sorry, but people just bother me and it gets to me after a while and I have to vent. Ok so that's fine I was just wondering if a registry setting could be set up to remove the limitations for my personal use if it wasn't too terribly difficult to implement, if not then fine, it's not a big deal... but what is a big deal is telling me I can't hear 16 hz when I said I could. I know what sound is, you think no one can hear lower than you, that's just arrogant, so if I tell you I can do something, or something else works for me etc... then don't assume I don't understand (by telling me it's probably binaural beats and not sound I hear etc.).. if I say I can hear a freakin pitch, then I can hear the freakin pitch, I don't care for people telling me something's not possible when I've actually done it, or something's gonna happen when in fact nothing ever happens. I go by what I notice, not by what other people say. If I went by other people, I'd have missed out a lot on life because I've proven people wrong (by trying it out) so many times I've lost count. And I've never been in any danger because I'm smart enough to know what things shouldn't be tried (like sticking something in an electric outlet, etc). I'm still fine, I've never damaged anything, so that tells me I know my $#|+ and I'm stickin' to it! Thank you and have a good day.

Moonmist

[DewDude420]

Ok, look...I gave you valid reasons from a generic standpoint.

I never said I was perfect. But you seem to want to twist what I say around in to a "i'm right" deal. I've wasted enough time trying to give people advice who apparently only want to hear what they want to hear rather than how it is.

So the denons aren't harmed by lower than 20hz? Fine. Maybe they did them right...however, I bet if I pumped 15hz in to a pair at an excessive volume for a few days they wouldn't be the same as they were before...even IF they were designed for it...that's fine...a headphone amp isn't likely to burn up...but don't try to get that kind of performence out of speakers....I know my vintage 1980 Denon amplifier would probably set itself a blaze if i attempted to pump 15hz in to it at high volume..I know my speakers would blow a fuse. oh, and rule #1 about audio equipment: never trust a sales person.

But if you want to continue to contradict everything I'm trying to say...fine..whatever...go ahead, continue to damage your hearing...continue to expect the impossible. That's fine...there's lots of other people who value the advice I give without trying to get me to tell them what they want to hear...I tell you the same thing I told a record exec "Look, i'm not caving and doing what YOU want me to do, i'm only doing what's in the best interest to the preservation and presentation of sound"

i'm not phobic of anything...I love bass..but I've STUDIED sound...extensively....I've studied how people hear...does that make me better? no, I just happen to have a better understanding of the nature of sound...and of sound reproduction systems. your system is not "de fatco" standard...just because your system can push 5hz doesn't mean the person with the cheap boombox from Wal-Mart is going to get quality sound....

But if you want to go ahead and throw 30,000 other reasons rather than just accept my logic but say you have other reasons, fine you're on your own....

and just because your hearing is fine now...how fine is it? have you had it measured? as the nerves in the inner ear lose sensivity, the brain compensates for it...one can lose 2 or 3 dB and you'd NEVER notice it..and this damage builds up and builds up and builds up to the point the nerves are totally dead.

that's it...end of my participation. good day and good luck.

[Tristan]

I hear dead people.

[DewDude420]

I hear dead people.

HAHA..you know what..I thought I did on my tape deck on time...so thinking I stumbled upon EVP, I ran more tests...it was just the local AM station coming through the electronics.